I know you all missed me, so I decided to post a little somethin' somethin'. I know that to argue pornography on this website is futile and probably immature, BUT I was referred by a sifter to this website:
http://www.oneangrygirl.net/
I do not think that this girl is a saint, and I don't agree with her about many things. Please don't try to attack me by attacking her. I'm not trying to affiliate myself with her.
That being said, I read a few things on her website that delighted me, one of them being her "porn myths" page. It delighted me not because she made any kind of valid arguments, but the porn myths that she pointed out are the exact ones I have heard over and over again from sifters, and it made me chuckle to read them. The webpage is not an argument against porn myths because she does not offer any support for the assertion that these ideas are indeed myths. (She does that elsewhere on the website, though.) I am not making that argument, either, although I do believe that these myths are in fact erroneous.
Here they are, with a few minor modifications of my own:
1. Porn cultivates good relationships.
2. Porn is for men who sincerely appreciate the beauty of the female body.
3. Porn is harmless and it has no negative effect on the person using it.
4. Strippers and porn stars lead glamorous lives, and men respect them.
5. Men like variety in women so porn use helps a man stay faithful to his woman.
6. Women who get involved in the porn industry choose to do so, and they have valuable careers.
7. Porn is an outlet or safety valve for men who would otherwise do Bad Things.
8. Women who work in porn are empowered and sexually liberated.
9. Porn is just a fantasy and people do not apply it to real life.
Please add your myths to the mix. I decided that if I'm going to talk porn, I might as well abandon the pitiful arguments I have been making. Yes, they have been pitiful and half-hearted. I really ought to start playing the science game with all of you "enlightened thinkers." I'm not making any promises, but if I have another mental lapse and decide to beat my head against the brick wall of your deluded minds (what I say, I say with love.), I'll follow this post up with some support for my assertions.
In the meantime, try not to support the destruction of humanity's moral fabric too much.
EDIT:I apologize for singling straight men out. I wasn't talking about all men. Just porn users. And since 71% of porn-users are straight, adult men, I focused on that group. So sorry.
http://www.oneangrygirl.net/
I do not think that this girl is a saint, and I don't agree with her about many things. Please don't try to attack me by attacking her. I'm not trying to affiliate myself with her.
That being said, I read a few things on her website that delighted me, one of them being her "porn myths" page. It delighted me not because she made any kind of valid arguments, but the porn myths that she pointed out are the exact ones I have heard over and over again from sifters, and it made me chuckle to read them. The webpage is not an argument against porn myths because she does not offer any support for the assertion that these ideas are indeed myths. (She does that elsewhere on the website, though.) I am not making that argument, either, although I do believe that these myths are in fact erroneous.
Here they are, with a few minor modifications of my own:
1. Porn cultivates good relationships.
2. Porn is for men who sincerely appreciate the beauty of the female body.
3. Porn is harmless and it has no negative effect on the person using it.
4. Strippers and porn stars lead glamorous lives, and men respect them.
5. Men like variety in women so porn use helps a man stay faithful to his woman.
6. Women who get involved in the porn industry choose to do so, and they have valuable careers.
7. Porn is an outlet or safety valve for men who would otherwise do Bad Things.
8. Women who work in porn are empowered and sexually liberated.
9. Porn is just a fantasy and people do not apply it to real life.
Please add your myths to the mix. I decided that if I'm going to talk porn, I might as well abandon the pitiful arguments I have been making. Yes, they have been pitiful and half-hearted. I really ought to start playing the science game with all of you "enlightened thinkers." I'm not making any promises, but if I have another mental lapse and decide to beat my head against the brick wall of your deluded minds (what I say, I say with love.), I'll follow this post up with some support for my assertions.
In the meantime, try not to support the destruction of humanity's moral fabric too much.
EDIT:I apologize for singling straight men out. I wasn't talking about all men. Just porn users. And since 71% of porn-users are straight, adult men, I focused on that group. So sorry.
1. The issue is not whether or not porn cultivates a good relationship; it shouldn't need to do that. In some circumstances it could possibly add to a relationship, but that depends on the mentality of the people involved. In any event, if porn is a crutch for your relationship, the relationship has been over for a long time.
2. I don't know who watches porn for the aesthetics, but they need serious mental help if they do.
3. This is an extremely flimsy premise upon which to judge a subject. I'm not sure what negative means in this context, because porn affects people just as differently as a painting in a museum. I may just be a moral relativist, but I don't see how anybody could clearly outline this objectively.
4. Some of them do, and some of them don't. If a woman has a low IQ and double-D tits, maybe she likes the idea of driving her sports car to her mansion after a day of fucking on film, instead of busing tables at a diner for her apartment rent. I know I can't blame her. And the part about men respecting them...most of the porn stars probably don't care one bit. Maybe some of them are stronger than that, and don't need a man's respect to feel justified. Maybe some porn stars are strong feminists.
5. Once again, this is grasping for ideas outside of the necessary framework of a relationship. If a man has thoughts of being unfaithful, porn is not going to satisfy those urges. That's like saying I want to cheat on my math test, but instead I'll just watch a video of someone cheating on a math test. Not the same thing in the slightest degree. Cheating men cheat, regardless of the circumstances.
6. As if women are seduced into the line of work, only to find out they were horribly wrong and now have no hope of escape from this torturous prison of sexual slavery? Change the word "women" to "men", and this "myth" sounds ludicrous. Actually, it sounds ludicrous anyway. Oh, and what does the word "valuable" mean? How do we value value?
7. Just a regurgitation of number 5.
8. Who cares if women are empowered by porn? I'm a man and I've never felt empowered by my line of work. I've felt demeaned and enslaved, hollow and used. But never empowered.
9. Some people do, and that is their choice. It's also their choice to go to the ER after being unable to retrieve an object from an orifice. Porn is a fantasy, unless it's applied to real life. Just like a movie where a man interrupts the wedding of his one true love to steal her away from the heartless man she is about to marry. In reality, that gets you arrested for stalking. so yes, porn is a fantasy. But we must watch how we translate it into reality. If two consenting adults choose to do indescribable things to each other, that's their fun. And if one of them feels uncomfortable doing something, it is the other's responsibility to understand their need and find a solution that is equitable for both parties involved. No means no.
On a personal note, I don't really have a view of porn, either for or against. It serves a purpose for many people, and that is their deal, not mine.
That aside, lies are lies and myths are myths. Religion is considered mythology by scholars. Psychology of sex is not. So, to say sexology is mythology, to me, is a bit of a stretch. Then again, I may be way off base.
Well, myth doesn't actually mean lie or theory. It means metaphor when speaking of comparitive-mythology, which is something you should read deeply into. Joseph Campbell talks about comparative-mythology largely in great books like The Hero with a Thousand Faces and, my personal favorite, The Power of Myth.
That aside, lies are lies and myths are myths. Religion is considered mythology by scholars. Psychology of sex is not. So, to say sexology is mythology, to me, is a bit of a stretch. Then again, I may be way off base.
*eye roll*
This is ridiculously irrelevant, but I'm going to address it, anyway.
From http://dictionary.reference.com:
Myth: an unproved or false collective belief that is used to justify a social institution.
Let's do some women myths/truths:
1. Women shop as a creative outlet, because they have no creative outlet of their own, and believe that spending money is the equivalent to painting or sculpting.
2. Women purchase clothes that are too small, not because they are losing weight and will need it, but to entice themselves into a healthier lifestyle. They purchase their reward to incite the means!
3. Women judge other women on their shopping choices, and believe that cloth sewn together defines you as a person.
4. Women need 100 pairs of shoes, because they have thousands of tendril feet hiding up their skirts.
5. Women group together to shop, to empower themselves to be better consumers, without this power grouping they are vulnerable and may make poor decisions. Because the only decision worth making, is a decision supported by 3-4 espresso caffeinated air-heads.
How does it feel to be lumped together with a group of dumb people? Not good? Yeah, so don't lump us all in the same category. Thanks.
That said, what's your ultimate aim here? Surely it's not to eliminate p0rn, because that's not going to happen obviously. Do you want us to stop feeling desire when we look at women in sexual situations? That's not going to happen either because it's a natural response. Are you asking us to stop viewing porn? You have no right and that is incredibly presumptuous. Are you simply trying to make us feel bad about ourselves? That's just mean. If I wanted to feel guilty about it, I'd go to church.
And I don't know why this is cross-posted to the main Sift Talk page. Clearly a femme and sexuality thread.
Where is the mythology porn? Like some elves, fairies maybe a troll or two. I was hoping to see Dragons! I mean, err... I was just you know curious, you know, intrigued. Like you know, when 2 girls kiss or guys...
all I gotta say is "ditto" to what schmawy said.
All of it.
Schmawy - also a great comment.
Laura - you kick ass. It's great to see someone without a Y chromosome saying shit like this is just stupid.
You don't need a mother fucking study to find the answer.
They do it to get them off quicker. Seriously. That's it.
and while I'm at it, why not recommend some good porn? Check out the movies by Tanya Hyde, maybe start with "house of shame" http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0405025/
www.cupido.no calls tanya hyde the best porn from a male director (his real name is trevor watson)
Stylistically his films are over the top, almost borderline surreal sometimes. lots of fetishes and kinky stuff, but always with lots of humor and enthusiasm and FUN.
Tanya Hyde is far far from that crap "bj, then fuck here and then there, and then come in the face" type of porn. British quality stuff
In the meantime, try not to support the destruction of humanity's moral fabric too much.
Speaking of myths...
thepinky: What you're doing is called "projecting". You're taking the failure of the one man, and projecting it onto the rest of the gender, via what you believe to be one of the causes of his disorder: pornography. Stop stereotyping. Nobody appreciates it and neither do you.
Seriously?
Your comments tell me that you haven't really listened to a the people have been saying in the Dita and Femma threads. I think you just possess what all religious people possess, a conviction that others are living their lives in a improper fashion that you find immoral, you don't like it so you seek to change it.
Porn, murder, rape, pedophilia, violence, sexual abuse, drug use, alcohol abuse, war. None of that will ever change, because we are human beings are creatures of chaos born within a system of chaos. There are no angels, there are no demons. There is just people.
The FAQ on that site you linked to cracks me up. THE VERY FIRST QUESTION she answers with a quote that claims all sorts of shit, yet offers NOTHING to back it up. Lulz.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hot+men&search_type=&search=Search
http://www.videosift.com/video/Footloose-Bollywood-style
How could anyone generalise all those factors into some silly statistics or myths? You could easily ask the same questions with regard to food, games, and spending your weekend and the whole matter would be totally uninteresting unless it concerned fast food, violent games or binge drinking.
So Thepinky, what is it exactly that you want to learn from us?
All that being said, I do have One Serious Question about porn, that I’ve never been able to get answered: the cum shots. Especially on the face, sharing, licking &c (you know what I mean). Who wants them? As a woman, I find them totally repulsive, so maybe the shots are supposed to appeal to the male audience. But then, I find it hard to believe that any, in particular heterosexual, man would be aroused by watching another guy’s sperm splashing of the screen.
PS: @Kommie, you do know, don’t you, that women shop (and eat chocolate) as an outlet for not getting enough good sex ;-)?
For the... money shots, I think its totally for male enjoyment, as a "Look what I made and look at these women enjoying my seed" moment. Maybe its a way of laying claim to the female, or some other thing buried DEEP in the male subconscious.
As for the chocolate, that may be true, I do know I have heard shopping as being an outlet for creativite thought. Then again, was that a myth or a truth!? OH NOES.
>> ^Octopussy:
All that being said, I do have One Serious Question about porn, that I’ve never been able to get answered: the cum shots. Especially on the face, sharing, licking &c (you know what I mean). Who wants them? As a woman, I find them totally repulsive, so maybe the shots are supposed to appeal to the male audience. But then, I find it hard to believe that any, in particular heterosexual, man would be aroused by watching another guy’s sperm splashing of the screen.
Sorry, that's not a myth, it's the absolute, total, utter truth: women are only interested in chocolate or shoes if they're seriously unsatisfied with their love lives (wait, seriously, let me get it, there is a website somewhere to support this...).
As for the money shots, that's exactly what made me wonder. I mean, you are looking at another guy's money shot/imprinting/territorial demarcation, aren't you? (To be honest, I've always wondered the same about guys visiting prostitutes and not using condoms.) So is the idea that you, any man watching, identifies with the male lead to the point where you think it's yours? Because, other/macho/Darwin-wise, I would think that it should be a serious turn off.
On the other hand, this might be the equivalent of my of Why Women Care About Fashion theory: let's face it, no (heterosexual) guy will ever notice new clothes, shoes, haircut, not to mention obscurities like handbags or a French manicure on your toe nails. But other women will, and thus send the message: this gall is hot and that is what guys respond to.
Wow, from cum shots to French manicures, I sure messed up this thread, didn't I?
Sorry, have to go back to youporn.com asap ;-).
You know how dogs piss on a tree to mark their territory...
>> "
But, that is exactly my point: what's the use of all that territorial marking if the male audience is not put off or maybe even aroused by another guy's marking?
thats another problem with lots of the porn being produced, the men are often totally idiots, thats a huge turn off. and fake tittie fake blond fake enjoying girls with an idiot of a guy isnt sexy porn at all.
I think it's a sense of suspension of disbelief, the porn is a fantasy, and as such you don't see it as another males fluid, but your own.
But in all seriousness, it really is akin to a woman saying, "Look at her handbag! It's so great! I want one just like it!" Jealousy mixed with hopeful anticipation of someday being in that person's situation.
I can't believe I'm trying to scientifically justify watching some random guy cum on some random woman.
>> ^Octopussy:
>> ^thinker247:
You know how dogs piss on a tree to mark their territory...
>> "
But, that is exactly my point: what's the use of all that territorial marking if the male audience is not put off or maybe even aroused by another guy's marking?
for better or worse porn is viewed mostly to get you off quicker.
for me it's for when i'm too lazy to dial up a memory or use my imagination, which is lame, but not because of the porn.
I'm not sure, but I think the Sift has a higher number of active female members than many popular sites. I generally think that this is because we are a tolerant and respectful bunch. Don't ruin it, Pinky.
Oh? And what's that supposed to mean? That because of one woman's anti-porn stance and her need to share that, you will all of a sudden become intolerant of women altogether? Please. And that because of your stance, the entire community will become intolerant and disrespectful? I highly doubt it.
@KOMMIE: All those generalizations listed are about porn, not necessarily about men. Two of them are solely about women. For you to come back the way you did was immature and really irrelevant.
@MG: Calling this "stupid shit" isn't necessary.
Re: moneyshots - The site thepinky addressed has quotes from pornographers, actors, etc. on this topic.
It's like a dog marking its territory. You know, why do dogs pee on fire hydrants and trees? I don't know. It's just like a man will leave his mark on a woman. You see something beautiful, you've got to let them know you were there.
-Pornographer Brandon Iron, explaining why men like to ejaculate onto women’s faces
and
"I'd like to really show what I believe the men want to see: violence against women. I firmly believe that we serve a purpose by showing that. The most violent we can get is the cum shot in the face. Men get off behind that, because they get even with the women they can't have. We try to inundate the world with orgasms in the face."
- Ex-porn actor and Free Speech Coalition board member Bill Margold
What do people thingk about the semantics of "objectification"/"objectify" as it's often used. I dont hold with it. I dont get it. i dont think it makes verbal sence or adds meaning. i think its a semi transparent cloud, which people dont see but obfusicates parts of the issiue.
Why? because that it implies that to look at a person with lust is to look at the person "as though they were an object" and not as a person. but what does that alternative mean? i mean, what does "to look at some one as a person" mean? cos if that doesnt mean somehting how cna the other? also the other is a falacy. people dont look lustfully thinking, of what they are looking at as an object. people "get off" on the itneraction of two active personailities, not pasive ones. be it mutual respect, mutual affection, mutual passion, or, of dominance and submission (with either party being etiher) thye are not getting stimulouse from comparing the other party to a rock. or a tree with a whole in it.
i just dont think the word "objectification" stands up to any serious analysis and if im wrong i wnat to be told why, so i can understand.
And what about gay porn (no, I do not mean guys loving girl-on-girl action), is that different?
Gosh, I'm getting so totally absorbed in this discussion, that I haven't done my toe nails yet (and that with the weekend coming up).
anyway, tis a tv show i clearly dont watch
The "destruction of morality's fabrics" can only occur on an individual basis, because there are absolutely NO universally accepted and eternal moral precepts. If you're an adherent of any of the Abrahamic faiths (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), you probably know that even God was a flip-flopper on what He considered right and wrong. So we should probably steer clear of such terminology.
The destruction of humanity's fabric occurs when we all start seeing the world in black and white, right and wrong, with NO middle ground. Discussing pornography is fine; discussing it in terms of "destruction of morality's fabric" is NOT fine.
Oh? And what's that supposed to mean? That because of one woman's anti-porn stance and her need to share that, you will all of a sudden become intolerant of women altogether? Please. And that because of your stance, the entire community will become intolerant and disrespectful? I highly doubt it.
Sorry LittleRed, I concede that my comment was somewhat reactionary. What I mean is that for the most part, the Sift transcends gender, and this feels like a big step backwards. I think I had been chatting with Choggie for six months before he got around to asking if I was a "chick or a dude", and there was a minimal amount of titillating content that I noticed on the Sift until Pinky started pointing them out. Now it's all sweaty and musky in here, and I find myself wondering about all the sexy Siftettes out there. It's distracting and counter-productive to the Pinky's goals.
Just noticed this from Pinky's post: "but if I have another mental lapse and decide to beat my head against the brick wall of your deluded minds (what I say, I say with love)"
Pinky I think you're a proselytizing throwback from a less enlightened era. I say this with love, of course.
Humm. THe cum shot. well, porn can be shot in many many differnt ways. with teh actors enjoying it, and each other, or not, with dominance, or not with violance, or not. personaly, i hate violance. its a turn off. i dont like subjugation or any of that. i dont like seeing a man do that. I can try to blank it from my perception if its just a small facet of whats going on but i dont like it, and if its the focus, ill avoid. not my thing.
But, ejaculation can be done in many styles, as with all such things. it can be done with violence, teritory marking, or humiliation, but it isnt always. it could have her face crinigng and trying to pull away, but thats not nice (not for me atleast). but, it can also be done differntly.
how do i mean?
well, having her face in the camera allows her to show emotion, responce, desire, interest, and so on. having a female respond possitivly to signs of sex is a turn on. the chirstian cultres are so full of a tradition that "women dont enjoy sex and cant" that a woman showing she is participating and enjoying breaks that toboo and it can be very stimulating and exciting. also,... men can feel self consious. men can feel unapreciated. men can feel un desired. expressing that desire towards men is big on calm, encouregment, empowerment, and suport of the man in the act.
A face, is FAR more expressive than her back.
I know, far from all porn conveys the above, but some can. and quite alot contains atleast some of that.
also, if its a bj, then the "money shot" is kind of like the final proof of not faking it. genuingly desiring the result, not faking that, is a turn on.
speaking of faking, "faking orgasms" has been a part of recent culture it seems. everone knows about it. lots may have thought of it if not done it. personaly, i dont like the idea for many reasons i could go inot, but the fact that people do, shows similar reasoning to what ive described above.
As for the man and his pensi being in the shot, personaly, i dont like him. if his rediculously muscled, i like him even less. if hes a 15inch insanity, then its a freak show, not sex.
His penis, if normal, you can imagine as yourse, conceptualise as yourse, and feeds your fantisy and visual stimulation (the sole purpose of which is to make it easier to achive stimulation, more easily (and ocasionaly simply to make it possible atall)). The film something about mary, listed the post orgasm as the only time a mans head is clear of the stimulus of hormons. thers some nugets of truth in that, and to be freed/released form teh build of desire is a positive thing. anyway, back to the penis. visualy, you can imagine his penis is yourse, and ignore the rest of his body focusing on her. like ignoring the rest of the page when you concentraight on the one line you are reading, him you ignore. when he ejaculates, and her responce to that is positive, you imaine it is you shes responding to, and that she is positive towards the whole experience and your participation. its like an "hey, this is ok".
but everyone percieves these things differntly, anyone here that has looked at porn has probably done so for varied resons on varying ocasions, and we are all differnt.
Thats part of why the generalisations of porn dont hold. how tis made, varies hugly. it is ana mater tape, made with the clear knowledge of both partys and submited to the worlds view acordingly? or is it some studio production? is it focused on one audiance or antother. and who is watching adn why. it's not just 1 thing.
There's "good" porn that's not demeaning to women, and then there's "bad" porn that is demeaning to women.
In which group does what I did to your mom last night go?
sorry
>> ^kronosposeidon:
There's "good" porn that's not demeaning to women, and then there's "bad" porn that is demeaning to women.
In which group does what I did to your mom last night go?
Well I hope you filmed it.....just so I can give you an answer, that is.
Don't tell me your names.
And I am TOTALLY objectifying your avatars while I'm fantasizing. You're all just 2-dimensional, 100x100 pixel objects to me right now.
Don't tell me your names.
Actias luna
Sorry if it spoilt the mood