Tags for this video have been changed from 'john mccain, free speech, sign' to 'john mccain, free speech, sign, peaceably, assemble' - edited by my15minutes
I hope we're not getting the whole story. I really don't like all the buck passing that was going on cuz it seemed like..."Umm, a representative from the Secret Service told me to give you a ticket, so I am. I'm not really sure that you're doing anything illegal, but here's your ticket. Now get off this public property."
If the situation is as silly as this video would lead us to believe, I hope a judge throws the ticket out.
God. I can't believe this shit happens. The problem is that only a small percentage of Americans actually know their rights. (unlike drunk people who know more the more they drink) An even smaller percentage of the knowledgeable actually care to take action. I gotta do some research on this one.
In Australia, police officers are not allowed to issue a ticket or arrest someone for what the officer beleives to be trespassing, its only when they are told by the owner of the land that the truant is tresspassing, and under that advisement can they take action.
So when the cop said "No hes saying you are trespassing on city property", thats not sloppy policework, thats correct OP.
There doesnt need to be any reason either, the owner can just tell the cops to arrest you / ticket you and remove you from the property for trespassing without a reason, and they gotta do it.
Bottom line, McCain hired out the event space, and didnt want anti-mccain people there....so he used the cops to get rid of em.
"The group was told it would have to rent space or use previously designated protest areas along the street, Schiavone said. "
Hello 1920's Soviet Russia, Comrade Lenin wants his ideas back.
O RLY? I think you would change your tune if you ever lived in a real police state.
And good digging, A185. But charliem is right. If it's not legally defined at public space, then the people that rented it had the day. It essentially becomes private property.
O RLY? I think you would change your tune if you ever lived in a real police state.
And good digging, A185. But charliem is right. If it's not legally defined at public space, then the people that rented it had the day. It essentially becomes private property.
As far as the law is concerned that sounds correct. But when McCain's campaign calls it a town hall meeting then it bloody well better be public and charging someone with trespassing based on the sign they are carrying is even more sickening for being done within the law.
>> ^MarineGunrock: But charliem is right. If it's not legally defined at public space, then the people that rented it had the day. It essentially becomes private property.
While it is clear that the venue is rented, she is being evicted from the plaza, which the police state is city property, and apparently from the video services other venues. While McCain and his staff and security have every right to not admit her to the venue, their claim to monopoly control of the surrounding area sounds suspect at the very least.
If I went to protest an event such as this I would be inclined towards civil disobedience , simply refuse to comply on the grounds of the right to freely assemble/speak, and force them to arrest me, and make the news, especially if I was a short graying female librarian. How would the GOP spin that one?
Under the law as it is now, Private property is essentially a dictatorship. You can be asked to leave by the owner of the property or his representative for any reason whatsoever and failure to comply can be considered trespassing. So Free speech does not really exist at all in 90% of the land of this country, because it's privately owned. Fuck that. If an event is advertised as open to the public then visitors should not be screened on the basis of their political views.
This is especially abhorrent because the McCain supporters in attendence are being deceived into believing they have been exposed to a full cross-section of public opinion in this "town hall meeting" that's really a private party.
Do we live in a police state? I would say no, but it's not entirely out of the question in this country. If it does happen it will come in the form of laws passed quietly while noone is watching and gradual conditioning of the American people with events like this.
It's easy to wade into water thats too deep when it's lukewarm.
boo hoo cry cry cry cry cry cry cry cry cry I think all the nominees are yahoos but I'm smart enough to know that the rich have the control and boo hoo all you want but that's the way it is. so wah wah wah give them more money like this lady you've solved nothing. We know our rights are completely obscured today so you've done the equivalent of telling me smoking causes cancer. Oh no!!!! boo hoooooo Get over yourself. OHMYGOD IT'S HITLER TIME CAUZE SHE GOT A TICKET! boo hoo
Oh and nice article about the janitor. People love to do things that they know will make other people angry and retaliate so that when they do take flak for pissing people off they can bitch and moan about how unfair life is. Yes, life is inherently completely unfair. Boooooooo hooooooooo learn how to deal with it rather than complain about it and suddenly it seems more manageable; what a mystery.
hmm...ok then. I guess I just assumed that the "free speech zone" was generally defined by the Canadian and Mexican border as well as the Atlantic and Pacific Ocean. Then again I just might be old school...
Outrageous! Certainly the use of *fear by the government. Great post.
>> ^MarineGunrock: O RLY? I think you would change your tune if you ever lived in a real police state.
I live in America. This is a real police state. You can start with why we have FISA, move to the Military Commissions Act of 2006 and end with the Patriot Act. If that's not enough for you, I've got more! For someone who says they follow Ron Paul, you sure don't listen to what he says, gunner. I'd say start here. It's about as good a book I've ever read. I think everyone, no matter your party affiliation, could learn something from that book. Easy read.
I don't mean to defend McCain's people, but let's be clear here:
According to the video, she was removed because of the large sign she was holding, not because of what it said. They told her that if she got rid of the sign she could come in. Perhaps they allowed pro-McCain signs, but there was no evidence of that in this video or the linked news story.
Now that being said, they handled the situation in the stupidest possible fashion. They made a typical situation into a news-worthy situation. All they had to do was warn her that signs were not allowed into the auditorium because they wanted everybody to have an unobstructed view. Then stop her at the door if she tried to take it in. Nobody would have debated their authority to stop her at the door.
But the forced removal and ticket was way out of line, and absolutely unforgivable.
"The term police state is a term for a state in which the government exercises rigid and , in many peoples' opinions, repressive controls over the social, economic and political life of the population, especially by means of a secret police force which operates outside the boundaries normally imposed by a constitutional republic. A police state typically exhibits elements of totalitarianism and social control, and there is usually little or no distinction between the law and the exercise of political power by the executive."
so.... i guess you're out of luck MG. find me a definition that doesn't sound like the USA/UK and call me back.
>> ^bcglorf: As far as the law is concerned that sounds correct. But when McCain's campaign calls it a town hall meeting then it bloody well better be public and charging someone with trespassing based on the sign they are carrying is even more sickening for being done within the law.
I can call my house open to the public but I still reserve the right to kick anyone out.
If you read the article A185 cited, then you would see that the venue was not public space. So for all anyone know, that then-private space comes under the McCain campaign control.
Yes, she should of fought back (not physically), and I sure as shit wouln't have walked off, because I'm sure that she was well within her rights - but for now, all we know for sure is that the article tells us that it wasn't public space.
I couldn't help but laugh at the very end when in the background some guy in a weird green suit is walking up with 2 pictures on it. 1 of mccain's face and the other of bush's face.
>> ^NetRunner: ^ That quaint thing? Please. Only librul tree-hugging commies care about rights for criminals like librarians (they're hiding something).
happy to be the 15th upvote there, bud. well-advised use of the word "quaint".
They should have thrown the book at her. Paperback or hardcover? Can you be escorted out of a public library for holding up political placards or chanting political slogans. I'm guessing you can, even though it's a "public" space. Everyone with any sense should know, you fight an old lady and you lose every time.
>> ^blankfist: Outrageous! Certainly the use of fear by the government. Great post.
>> ^MarineGunrock: O RLY? I think you would change your tune if you ever lived in a real police state.
I live in America. This is a real police state. You can start with why we have FISA, move to the Military Commissions Act of 2006 and end with the Patriot Act. If that's not enough for you, I've got more! For someone who says they follow Ron Paul, you sure don't listen to what he says, gunner. I'd say start here. It's about as good a book I've ever read. I think everyone, no matter your party affiliation, could learn something from that book. Easy read.
Shit, and I thought I'd pre-QM-commented accurately. It's not the librul tree-hugging commies anymore, we're going all historical with marxist when you're part of the neocon program now.
I'll fix it, because revisionist history is sooooooo neocon marxist.
If you reserve the right to kick people off your property for any reason, simply because it's your private property, then what would happen if they had kicked out a black guy, then said their reason was, "Because he's a nigg..."?
"I'm sorry sir, the Secret Service has told us to remove all darkies from the property. I'm giving you a ticket for being black in a private town hall meeting area. Please don't let it happen again."
There was no valid reason to kick her out, beyond simply not liking her sign. Which is quite odd, since it was only comparing McCain to a dictator with blood on his hands.
>> ^jwray: Under the law as it is now, Private property is essentially a dictatorship. You can be asked to leave by the owner of the property or his representative for any reason whatsoever and failure to comply can be considered trespassing. So Free speech does not really exist at all in 90% of the land of this country, because it's privately owned. Fuck that.
That's the way it should be. Can you imagine if the government told me I couldn't kick someone off my own property for calling my wife a bitch? If I own property, and someone comes onto it and says something I don't like, I should have every legal and moral right to have them removed for trespassing on my whim. The reason is irrelevant; I should have the right to control who is on my property, period. The First Amendment is to protect free speech from the government, but the government doesn't own my property. Don't like it? Stay off my property.
In any case, the property on which this bullshit meeting took place on appears to be public property, so it seems to me that this lady had her rights violated.
Free country? Do you think that is really what our soldiers are 'fighting' and 'dying' for? No. They are fighting and dying for a corporate run war profiteering state.
She now has the right to counter claim that her constitutional rights for free speech were violated, and I can guarantee you.. in any true free and fair system, She would win hands down.
Tough to find such a thing in the US of course.
Now you know why people are trying to name a sewage treatment plant after George W. Bush.
>> ^jwray: Under the law as it is now, Private property is essentially a dictatorship. You can be asked to leave by the owner of the property or his representative for any reason whatsoever and failure to comply can be considered trespassing. So Free speech does not really exist at all in 90% of the land of this country, because it's privately owned. Fuck that.
That's the way it should be. Can you imagine if the government told me I couldn't kick someone off my own property for calling my wife a bitch? If I own property, and someone comes onto it and says something I don't like, I should have every legal and moral right to have them removed for trespassing on my whim. The reason is irrelevant; I should have the right to control who is on my property, period. The First Amendment is to protect free speech from the government, but the government doesn't own my property. Don't like it? Stay off my property.
In any case, the property on which this bullshit meeting took place on appears to be public property, so it seems to me that this lady had her rights violated.
Fuck McCain and his minions.
I know where you're coming from and would like to agree, but the problem arises under this system: You have no freedom unless you have your own private property. If you're on someone else's private property, you basically have 3 choices: 1. Do whatever they say in exchange for permission to stay. 2. Get arrested for trespassing 3. Go somewhere else (Where? Someone else's private property?)
If the whole world will be someone else's property, poverty will be equivalent to slavery.
Since land existed long before people existed, it was at some point appropriated in a way that's just as illegitimate as if Neil Armstrong were to claim ownership of the entire Moon.
we protect minorities from discrimination in hiring, school admissions, etc.
but we can't protect protesters from discrimination?
the woman had a sign that had no indecent pictures or language. she was punished with a fine and ejection from the premises, and in fact banishment from the premises under penalty of future arrest. this is hardly proportional punishment. and it is plain that those present without signs got preferential protection vs those who had signs that said "mccain = bush."
this response appears to violate 2 amendments that i know of.
If this was truly considered private property, I don't have a problem with them having her removed because of her sign. That's their prerogative. I do have a problem if the Secret Service was involved. She obviously wasn't a physical threat to McCain - it was her political message they didn't like. If the Secret Service had anything to do with her removal because of this political message, there should be serious repercussions.
I think that you guys are really invoking some serious change by having this discussion on a useless internet forum on some video website. Keep it up. Moan bitch Moan bitch moan bitch click click click time to watch tv
re:iloseatlife. Keeping quiet is a much better solution, right? Discussion is certainly not enough though. People have to kick it Gandhi style to get any real results. -Karl
If the government actually represented the people, something would be done. But of course, they don't represent the people at all. Otherwise.. the same morons wouldn't keep getting re-elected, even with a 14% approval rating (congress).
The flag is is the symbol, but the Bill of Rights is the ideal. The right to protest was paid for with American blood and American lives. The police and McCain's people just shit on every single one of them.
Interestingly, Tahitians, prior to encounter with Europeans, had little concept of "private" property. The land was so productive and fertile, there wasn't need for competition for resources. This caused considerable consternation to Capt. Cook when he landed in Tahiti and the natives decided to borrow a few of his items.
When resources get more scarce and competition for them grows, the concept of private property, land rights and rule of law become much more important for societal stability. Zimbabwe comes to mind.
>> ^honkeytonk73: If the government actually represented the people, something would be done. But of course, they don't represent the people at all. Otherwise.. the same morons wouldn't keep getting re-elected, even with a 14% approval rating (congress).
I think those congress approval ratings reflect more of people's dissatisfaction with representatives from other districts than dissatisfaction with their own district. I know of no individual congressman with an approval rating that low in his own district.
Stumble This
edit? there was no edit, I always said marxist, and you're unpatriotic for impugning my service to the sift by saying otherwise.
If the situation is as silly as this video would lead us to believe, I hope a judge throws the ticket out.
So when the cop said "No hes saying you are trespassing on city property", thats not sloppy policework, thats correct OP.
There doesnt need to be any reason either, the owner can just tell the cops to arrest you / ticket you and remove you from the property for trespassing without a reason, and they gotta do it.
Bottom line, McCain hired out the event space, and didnt want anti-mccain people there....so he used the cops to get rid of em.
"The group was told it would have to rent space or use previously designated protest areas along the street, Schiavone said. "
Hello 1920's Soviet Russia, Comrade Lenin wants his ideas back.
Crazy but not surprising, the US is a police state.
O RLY? I think you would change your tune if you ever lived in a real police state.
And good digging, A185. But charliem is right. If it's not legally defined at public space, then the people that rented it had the day. It essentially becomes private property.
>> ^BenjaminFranklin2u:
Crazy but not surprising, the US is a police state.
O RLY? I think you would change your tune if you ever lived in a real police state.
And good digging, A185. But charliem is right. If it's not legally defined at public space, then the people that rented it had the day. It essentially becomes private property.
As far as the law is concerned that sounds correct. But when McCain's campaign calls it a town hall meeting then it bloody well better be public and charging someone with trespassing based on the sign they are carrying is even more sickening for being done within the law.
But charliem is right. If it's not legally defined at public space, then the people that rented it had the day. It essentially becomes private property.
While it is clear that the venue is rented, she is being evicted from the plaza, which the police state is city property, and apparently from the video services other venues. While McCain and his staff and security have every right to not admit her to the venue, their claim to monopoly control of the surrounding area sounds suspect at the very least.
If I went to protest an event such as this I would be inclined towards civil disobedience , simply refuse to comply on the grounds of the right to freely assemble/speak, and force them to arrest me, and make the news, especially if I was a short graying female librarian. How would the GOP spin that one?
This is especially abhorrent because the McCain supporters in attendence are being deceived into believing they have been exposed to a full cross-section of public opinion in this "town hall meeting" that's really a private party.
It's easy to wade into water thats too deep when it's lukewarm.
I think all the nominees are yahoos but I'm smart enough to know that the rich have the control and boo hoo all you want but that's the way it is.
so wah wah wah give them more money like this lady you've solved nothing.
We know our rights are completely obscured today so you've done the equivalent of telling me smoking causes cancer.
Oh no!!!! boo hoooooo
Get over yourself. OHMYGOD IT'S HITLER TIME CAUZE SHE GOT A TICKET!
boo
hoo
Yes, life is inherently completely unfair. Boooooooo hooooooooo learn how to deal with it rather than complain about it and suddenly it seems more manageable; what a mystery.
I guess I just assumed that the "free speech zone" was generally defined by the Canadian and Mexican border as well as the Atlantic and Pacific Ocean.
Then again I just might be old school...
>> ^MarineGunrock:
O RLY? I think you would change your tune if you ever lived in a real police state.
I live in America. This is a real police state. You can start with why we have FISA, move to the Military Commissions Act of 2006 and end with the Patriot Act. If that's not enough for you, I've got more! For someone who says they follow Ron Paul, you sure don't listen to what he says, gunner. I'd say start here. It's about as good a book I've ever read. I think everyone, no matter your party affiliation, could learn something from that book. Easy read.
According to the video, she was removed because of the large sign she was holding, not because of what it said. They told her that if she got rid of the sign she could come in. Perhaps they allowed pro-McCain signs, but there was no evidence of that in this video or the linked news story.
Now that being said, they handled the situation in the stupidest possible fashion. They made a typical situation into a news-worthy situation. All they had to do was warn her that signs were not allowed into the auditorium because they wanted everybody to have an unobstructed view. Then stop her at the door if she tried to take it in. Nobody would have debated their authority to stop her at the door.
But the forced removal and ticket was way out of line, and absolutely unforgivable.
>> ^kronosposeidon:
Someone needs to tell that librarian that the Bill of Rights has been moved to the Fiction section.
"The term police state is a term for a state in which the government exercises rigid and , in many peoples' opinions, repressive controls over the social, economic and political life of the population, especially by means of a secret police force which operates outside the boundaries normally imposed by a constitutional republic. A police state typically exhibits elements of totalitarianism and social control, and there is usually little or no distinction between the law and the exercise of political power by the executive."
so.... i guess you're out of luck MG. find me a definition that doesn't sound like the USA/UK and call me back.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/varocker07/2241016820/
Do you think they arrested this young girl?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/varocker07/2241016820/
Do you think she even knew what the heck she was doing there? She was probably promised democracy flavored ice cream by her dad.
The greatest lie ever told is that the US is a democracy.
This is correct, because America is not a Democracy: It's a Constitutional Republic.
The greatest lie ever told is that the X is a Y.
True for any X where X is a country claiming to be Y.
Where Y is any non-oppressive form of government.
As far as the law is concerned that sounds correct. But when McCain's campaign calls it a town hall meeting then it bloody well better be public and charging someone with trespassing based on the sign they are carrying is even more sickening for being done within the law.
I can call my house open to the public but I still reserve the right to kick anyone out.
If you read the article A185 cited, then you would see that the venue was not public space. So for all anyone know, that then-private space comes under the McCain campaign control.
Yes, she should of fought back (not physically), and I sure as shit wouln't have walked off, because I'm sure that she was well within her rights - but for now, all we know for sure is that the article tells us that it wasn't public space.
I wonder if he got kicked out too.
^ That quaint thing? Please. Only librul tree-hugging commies care about rights for criminals like librarians (they're hiding something).
happy to be the 15th upvote there, bud.
well-advised use of the word "quaint".
She gets youtube exposure instead of being ignored, plus my coveted downvote!
The greatest lie ever told is that the US is a democracy.
Yes, and it's told by the marxists. USA is a republic with representative government.
Outrageous! Certainly the use of fear by the government. Great post.
>> ^MarineGunrock:
O RLY? I think you would change your tune if you ever lived in a real police state.
I live in America. This is a real police state. You can start with why we have FISA, move to the Military Commissions Act of 2006 and end with the Patriot Act. If that's not enough for you, I've got more! For someone who says they follow Ron Paul, you sure don't listen to what he says, gunner. I'd say start here. It's about as good a book I've ever read. I think everyone, no matter your party affiliation, could learn something from that book. Easy read.
MarineGunRock only reads books with pictures.
Yes, and it's told by the marxists.
Shit, and I thought I'd pre-QM-commented accurately. It's not the librul tree-hugging commies anymore, we're going all historical with marxist when you're part of the neocon program now.
I'll fix it, because revisionist history is sooooooo
neoconmarxist.>> ^MrConrads:
>> ^thinker247:
Do you think they arrested this young girl?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/varocker07/2241016820/
Do you think she even knew what the heck she was doing there? She was probably promised democracy flavored ice cream by her dad.
"I'm sorry sir, the Secret Service has told us to remove all darkies from the property. I'm giving you a ticket for being black in a private town hall meeting area. Please don't let it happen again."
There was no valid reason to kick her out, beyond simply not liking her sign. Which is quite odd, since it was only comparing McCain to a dictator with blood on his hands.
very clever point.
maybe she should have stood her ground more, but she still made her point strongly and without ranting.
MarineGunRock only reads books with pictures.
Whats that supposed to mean?
>> ^kronosposeidon:
Someone needs to tell that librarian that the Bill of Rights has been moved to the Fiction section.
>> ^BenjaminFranklin2u:
MarineGunRock only reads books with pictures.
Whats that supposed to mean?
I've noticed that he likes to do that in a lot of threads. My advice is to keep it up. I have an itchy trigger finger.
That's the way it should be. Can you imagine if the government told me I couldn't kick someone off my own property for calling my wife a bitch? If I own property, and someone comes onto it and says something I don't like, I should have every legal and moral right to have them removed for trespassing on my whim. The reason is irrelevant; I should have the right to control who is on my property, period. The First Amendment is to protect free speech from the government, but the government doesn't own my property. Don't like it? Stay off my property.
In any case, the property on which this bullshit meeting took place on appears to be public property, so it seems to me that this lady had her rights violated.
Fuck McCain and his minions.
She now has the right to counter claim that her constitutional rights for free speech were violated, and I can guarantee you.. in any true free and fair system, She would win hands down.
Tough to find such a thing in the US of course.
Now you know why people are trying to name a sewage treatment plant after George W. Bush.
>> ^arsenault185:
>> ^BenjaminFranklin2u:
MarineGunRock only reads books with pictures.
Whats that supposed to mean?
I've noticed that he likes to do that in a lot of threads. My advice is to keep it up. I have an itchy trigger finger.
Do it! Do it! Don't be chicken!
That's the way it should be. Can you imagine if the government told me I couldn't kick someone off my own property for calling my wife a bitch? If I own property, and someone comes onto it and says something I don't like, I should have every legal and moral right to have them removed for trespassing on my whim. The reason is irrelevant; I should have the right to control who is on my property, period. The First Amendment is to protect free speech from the government, but the government doesn't own my property. Don't like it? Stay off my property.
In any case, the property on which this bullshit meeting took place on appears to be public property, so it seems to me that this lady had her rights violated.
Fuck McCain and his minions.
I know where you're coming from and would like to agree, but the problem arises under this system: You have no freedom unless you have your own private property.
If you're on someone else's private property, you basically have 3 choices:
1. Do whatever they say in exchange for permission to stay.
2. Get arrested for trespassing
3. Go somewhere else (Where? Someone else's private property?)
If the whole world will be someone else's property, poverty will be equivalent to slavery.
Since land existed long before people existed, it was at some point appropriated in a way that's just as illegitimate as if Neil Armstrong were to claim ownership of the entire Moon.
we protect minorities from discrimination in hiring, school admissions, etc.
but we can't protect protesters from discrimination?
the woman had a sign that had no indecent pictures or language. she was punished with a fine and ejection from the premises, and in fact banishment from the premises under penalty of future arrest. this is hardly proportional punishment. and it is plain that those present without signs got preferential protection vs those who had signs that said "mccain = bush."
this response appears to violate 2 amendments that i know of.
[Of course, there won't be.]
Keep it up.
Moan bitch Moan bitch moan bitch click click click time to watch tv
-Karl
When resources get more scarce and competition for them grows, the concept of private property, land rights and rule of law become much more important for societal stability. Zimbabwe comes to mind.
If the government actually represented the people, something would be done. But of course, they don't represent the people at all. Otherwise.. the same morons wouldn't keep getting re-elected, even with a 14% approval rating (congress).
I think those congress approval ratings reflect more of people's dissatisfaction with representatives from other districts than dissatisfaction with their own district. I know of no individual congressman with an approval rating that low in his own district.